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Do you believe that hacks are out of hand?
Nope, they're fine as they are 22%  22%  [ 2 ]
The HACKS are ok, how we GET these hacks needs to change 22%  22%  [ 2 ]
Getting the hacks are fine, but the hacks are too powerful 33%  33%  [ 3 ]
We need to tone down the hacks and change how they're obtained 22%  22%  [ 2 ]
I pooped my pants...I MEAN!! I don't think there should be any hacks 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Total votes : 9
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 2:35 pm 
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Alright, people complain about not being involved so I'm gonna throw it in your face this time :lol: Please remember, that you don't need to wait for me to ask something of you for you to say it. All you have to do is talk to me about your opinions, whatever they are!

Now, topic at hand: hacks

Those of you that pay attention know that april fools day was an interesting one over on subs. From a penguin taking over the site to, well me going psycho, things got crazy. However, spawned from that have been peace talks to FIX the problems between subs and main. One issue that's been brought up is indeed our hacks. Now, don't worry, no one's stripping you of your hacks. Hacks are a part of the storyline. Hoooooowever, the mean's in which you aquire your hacks and develope them need to change.

I've opened this thread (a very un-Nallish thing to do, I know :) I usually don't do anything o.o) to see YOUR opinions on the subject. I want to know what you think is best to do. On top of the poll at the top, I want to discuss ways to IMPROVE the hacking system.

Now there's very many ways we could do this. We can leave it as is and simply make hacks more difficult to get and require you to earn them more properly.

We could require Cypher to do something about the hacks. Have everyone's hack's similar to the Golden Orbs given out. He choses when the hacks get to evolve, you chose what it evolves to.

We could develope some kind of mathematical system that mixes with your level. So level 40's have more evolved hacks then level 9's.

We could also have a way (Night suggested it for pets which will be a different discussion topic but we can use it here too perhaps) that involves a kind of point system and your hacks require a certain amount of points to be usable. If anyone played Kingdom Hearts, think of the system that game works on.

Going on with that, we could adapt and use just about any system from the FF games. FF7 and FFX being the most reasonable off the top of my head. Have your hacks as kind of a "Materia" and as you gain level's you gain more "slots" for your hacks. Or have a "Sphere grid" where the sphere's are differen't levels of your hacks.

Now these arn't the ONLY choices, just a bunch I thought up off the top of my head. The one thing I'm noticing about these things is that I think hacks may have to be broken up into tinyer levels. Not necessairly WEAKEN them, just divide them up.

I'll use Night's abilities as an example since his are well known. His hacks kinda run on their own system... I think the way he did it works, but is not possible for everyone's hacks.

Night can mix just about every element together. However, a way to "split" that up is perhaps learning how to mix only 2 element's at a time. If you can imagine all the possible combinations of elements, that's a lot of different levels :D

And I'm not saying EVERYONE needs to be on the same system. Nor am I saying make your hacks evolve as your levels do. I still want to SEE the evolution gradually in IC quests. However, I think a limiter needs to be in place. You gain a "hack level" THEN you go work your hack into the next quest or whenever you feel like it.

Anyways, let me hear your suggestions. I'd like to clear things up with everyone :wink:

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 3:46 pm 
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Lately, I been seeing people getting their hacks within their first or second quest. I think I got my hack on my fourth quest (this happen during one of the slowdowns of Main). One of the things in the beginning that hacks didn't have a drawback (main example: Zavier's Dragons). When I finally got my hack, I had two drawbacks to it: I couldn't target more than one person/thing with my power and using it would cause me pain. Also, I planned to add more powers to it in time (my solo is just a preview of my potential). As for the backstory, that does make sense since I do have a backstory behind mine.

Basically, hacks shouldn't given out immediately. They need to have a limiter of some type. They also need a personal backstory behind them. Just appearing doesn't cut it.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 4:04 pm 
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One thing Phoe mentioned that I agree with is the drawbacks. Mine started off without any, and look what happened; the battle royale especially blew them out of proportion. So I added my randomizer system to it. Sure, they're still really powerful, but they can blow us up just as easily than the monsters.

Also, perhaps we can use the Library for the Backstory behind each hack; Run your own solo in there, "discovering" the hack, bringing it out, training it, whatever. I don't think they really should be as tied-down as other things; but they should be more limited.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 7:21 pm 
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Hacks are fine. But, let's have some originality! Tokki, Night, Nall, Gingi, Kurai, and a few others had these 'special' abilities that made them unique...recently, everyone now asks for things that are so cliche it isn't even funny. We could be more original with what we ask...

Also, I think some people got their hacks too fast. They should've been forced to endure main as a normal player, pit against hacked players, and have them stay like that for a bit longer, and test them to see of they enjoy main for the story or just for the extra ablities.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 7:24 pm 
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Why not go back to the original system? I remember it worked something like this.

Step 1:Mod/Admin permission
Step 2: Solo/Storyline quest explaining how it's discovered.

The only problem with it for me is that it would mean giving away information on hijinx, which I've been trying to avoid for some time now.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 9:06 pm 
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I kind like jinx's idea, creating a solo quest to explain how you got your hacks. It doesn't mean you have to go into full detail the full potenial of your hacks just more or less a basic understanding.

To but myself on blast, I have been through the quest but I never really received my hacks in quest, I basically just got them. Or well the story was I was going to get them in Pandora but eh....well that didn't happen. So it would help to explain my hack in a solo you know.

But back to hacks being given. It seems that they are just be given away, sorry noobs, but they've gotten hacks pretty quickly and their pets were just here you go on a silver platter(please don't mistake this as anger or anything) but to me it does make more season for them to earn their hacks.

In what way I am unsure: quest, events, duels, et al. Which ever way you feel works.

OH and a system style...I generally based "my hacks" on a backdraw like Night and Phoenix have done. It does make sense for hacks to grow in time so why not go with points. With every quest you can gain a level or certain amount points and say 10 points your hack my grow. I don't know just a suggestion.

Okay well thats my two cents

Edit: Actually reading over Tokki's post in subs.

Quote:
such a massive amount kills the originality of a hacked character. Sometimes it doesn't-- some people actually do have well-planned, in depth stories behind their character hacks, but some people just throw them together, and give little to no thought at all to their character's "specialty", cheapening it, in my eyes.

A lot of people think that the hacks shouldn't exist at all. Or that the hacks should be much less powerful. I personally think that the hacks shouldn't have been explosively given away like they are now, but I think it could have been done much better if the hacks had been planned more in depth and some means of control had been placed on them.

Hacks were pretty much extremely rare, and VERY story oriented (with the exception of Nalls, but at that time I viewed Nall's hacks as storyline tools-- his ability to know what was coming up ahead explaining how he could tell everyone what to expect for story purposes). Now, the hacks have meager "solo-quests" that supposedly explain the entire story behind their character going from normal to absolutely uber-powerful.



Although it wasn't her intention, I don't feel the need for my Hack(even though I don't feel I have it) whatever so ya. Sorry just needed it stated. And I think Tokki had a point in her statement on solo quest and how inadequately they give the story of a hack.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 11:00 pm 
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Ok; I know my class is a big issue when it comes to hacks. There is a backstory and I do have it written on my uncles computer, but I need to retype it and post it here. I took the time to connect my hack backstory to EVERYTHING that has happened to Vera while in Divvy. Back from when she was first infected to when she first entered the World is all connected to my backstory. I am just a bit annoyed with it and not wanting to post because of the members who like to critque about things and judge. I can give people the backstory sum up in they want, but if you want the whole backstory you got to wait till I post it on my site and give ya a link.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 1:07 am 
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I really don't like this "points" idea. If we can adapt the old system a little, it might work a little better.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 1:43 am 
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The points idea is kinda useless to me, seeing as how I already have my hack evolve as I level up. I mean, when I get it (not this quest, I'm gonna do a solo after that to obtain it) it's just a shield, but (depending on my level at that time) I'll have to do about 3-4 quests, maybe even more, before it can even absorb the elements. And even after that... probably another 4-5 'till I can start blasting elemental attacks.

The hacks we do have though need to be toned down. No offense Reinier, but I personally think your hack is so totally overpowered it's not even funny. Don't you get like... a weapon with its own skills for each stone you get?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:41 am 
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Reinier has a series of gems that each have their own attributes and skill, yes. and it IS powerful, yes. I know because I helped craft it. But it also has a limit on how long he can use a weapon; keeping it formed drains SP over time. He just really hasn't used them long enough at once yet to have that come into play.

I agree about the point system. I mean, it'll work for say Lighteria, who already has a pretty tight system; but trying to take hijinx's or gingi's hacks and put them on the same scale? It's a better idea to impose limits on a case-by-case basis, to keep them balanced. Ideally, hacks should be entities themselves, ever-changing as the user grows in experience and control, changes mentally over time. cracking down universally can stunt this growth, leave us with players who have little room for originality. It's a balance that must be struck on an individual level.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 3:36 am 
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It's easy to just say this, but I agree with the points system, and I even MORE agree with the concept that it should be handled case by case. The best thing I personally like about the hacks are that it really adds a fun dynamic that you couldn't have before. Plus it gives you the ability to express your character's ...sort of inner power I guess.

I've tried to keep my hack limited, with disadvantages. I worry it's got too many powers so I made them hard to use, yada yada...

I do want to say that I'm not sure all of the hacks can be explained by a simple solo quest. It might be some sort of long-term story reason they have it that can't just be explained in a nutshell.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 8:35 am 
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Hehe thanks Light you just helped me defend my class change. Someone was telling me that switching off from the feline wavemaster was a stupid move, but to be honest. I COULD NOT play Vera like that anymore, it was just crappy and wasn't fun. My posts were small as hell and I mean usually 1 small paragraph. Like I say, RPing just like art is worthless if you're not enjoying it. Though I do feel that class hacks are a little different here then the normal hacks, since you really can't upgrade them or evolve them without being clichè

As for normal hacks and such, I could imagine those evolving with level. I would like to see a built out system for that though instead of "At 10 you get and then at 40 you get" thing. Some of the hacks are far more powerful from the start then others and that needs to be balanced out one of two ways.

1) The weaker hack levels up and such at a faster rate then the stronger one.

2) The Weaker hack has a HUGE power boost at level 40 or whatever compared to the stronger one.

Since everyone's hacks work differently it is harder to judge. Nighthand's for example can be powerful and cool, while mine besides my class well...suck ass no matter what unless we're fighting monsters that inflict blind every turn or such. Then you have Tokki's which has the potential to do an ass load of stuff all ranging in power.

This is my suicidal part right here. Class hacks can't evolve but are powerful enough that they don't need to; so I am saying instead of baggering about the class hacks, just make it so anyone with a powerful class cannot have a decent hack. As you see my hack is blindness immune and Dark vision. Thus not very good and un-upgradable, but it works out and I don't want or need another hack. Also remember what I gave up for that class; the speed boosts, the claws, the Fury attacks and a lot of other stuff that I was willing to give up because I hated Vera like that.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 7:39 pm 
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I, like a couple others, am not a particular fan of the point system. I think as long as we run things by admins, we should be able to evolve them at a pace that seems logical. Take me for example. Before I get my next were-form, I will have to do a few quests to get control of my first. I don't have access to them all at once. Each time I add a form, or even think to add a form, I'll ask Nights. It's what I've done so far. It seems to be working. *shrug* I guess it could start to irritate him though if everyone was suddenly bombarding him with hack questions.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 4:33 pm 
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Zan wrote:
I guess it could start to irritate him though if everyone was suddenly bombarding him with hack questions.


heh, everyone does already, it's not any big change. heck, i've had subbers who're still level 1 or 2 ask me about hacks. @_@

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 11:57 pm 
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That sucks hardcore nighty, but ehh I was the one who sent Rey after you to that because I was 100% sure she would be a mainer in no time, but then she quit so that screwed up that idea

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